Changing the World
Posted by: stuartdelony in Blogroll, Jesus, Ministry, changing the world, evangelism, god, gospel, rob bell, share
The other day I posed a quote by Rob Bell, “When people think about changing the world, they do not think of the church.“ Then asked the follow up question, “Why do you think that is?“
Virgil had a great response:
“My guess would be that it is because the church has decided to only care about the afterlife. The mentality is that you get as many of em in as you can” - who needs to change the world?”
You know, I really think he’s on to something here. I had a conversation with a student who told me, “Do I care about where I go when I die? Why should I? That’s for old people like you to think about.” Evangelism has changed. The message hasn’t, but what matters to people has. Americans never want to think of themselves as old. Death isn’t something that’s thought about very often - it’s just not sexy.
And is eternity the only message behind the gospel? Isn’t there a here and now to Christ? Why is that so hard for us to convey? Here’s the one thing that you can do to evangelize effectively everyone you know: tell them what Christ has done for you. That’s what they want to hear. We are the “what’s in it for me” society. Really think and articulate what having Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior has done for you. Don’t give them the, “he’s forgiven my sins!” answer.
How has knowing and walking with Christ changed your existence in this world? Answer that question, honestly and from your heart… and people will listen. That is what evangelism is about. Not saving souls. Not packing them down the aisles. It is our job to simply share the good news of what Christ has done for us. It’s about changing the world one life at a time. That is what people need to hear.
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Hello,
I’m afraid that doesn’t make much sense to me. I’d be interested to see what Bible verses brought you to that conclusion.
Even if you ignore all the verses I could quote (Matthew 6:19-34 among dozens of others) that seem to indicate Jesus’ concern was our eternity, doesn’t it make sense? Eternity is a long time, and our lives are so short.
If the society has a “what’s in it for me?” (sinful) mentality, do we really want to appeal to that sinful nature to get them saved?
Was Jesus tortured so that we could be blessed or have a happy life? What about all the verses where we’re promised persecution? What if someone became a Christian, but didn’t get all of the things you promised, but the trials, temptations and persecution that Jesus promised?
I’m looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
Thanks,
Bill
Was Jesus tortured so that we could be blessed or have a happy life?
I don’t think Stuart is claiming any such thing; the point of the Gospel is not entirely about what happens to us when we die, and all the verses promising us persecution are not directed at us; they are rather directed to a first century audience. There is such a thing as “context” (literal and historical) to reading scripture and developing a Biblical world-view is very much connected to our understanding of that context and a proper placing of our own lives into the narrative of the Scripture.
The trials, temptations and persecutions promised by Jesus have already happened. Unless you are suggesting that one cannot be a Christian unless he is tortured, persecuted and suffers as a result of his or her faith.
Hey there billphillips. Maybe it doesn’t make sense to you because you didn’t read it. Who was appealing to a sinful nature? It sounds as though you are missing the point. Stuart wasn’t discussing that God doesn’t care about our eternity with him, I believe he was trying to convey that people struggle with the idea of eternity. Its not about “sugar coating” the word of God, but it is about us sharing the word to others. Not many people (young people especially) will sit and listen to someone rattle on and on and on quoting this verse and that verse from the bible. Good for that person for memorizing scriptures (because we should use the sword of the spirit) but people relate to the heart. Stuart was telling us to share the goods news of what our savior has done for us. That is what draws people near, it is knowing that we all sin and will always sin and that we have a merciful savior that will forgive us and love us not matter what. That doesn’t mean that we won’t have consequences from our sin, but we will have our heavenly father walking us through life’s battles.
Hey Bill,
You may be misunderstanding me (or I may not be expressing myself very well).
My point. Does eternity matter? Yes it does, but it doesn’t speak to the needs of people today in their day to day lives. Christ came to save, but he also met people’s needs (take into consideration all the healings). He had a personal touch that changed those who came into contact with Him. Am I saying that Jesus is a vending machine? Nope, not at all.
Is He the Savior of the world? Yes. Did he die and suffer for us? Yes. Does believing and following Him save us from judgment and lead us to eternity. Yes. Will those statements matter to most non-believers today. No.
Look around you. People are hurt and broken. They are using so many things (yes, sinful things) to fill that void in their lives. They are searching. They need Christ, but we as Christians do such an awful job of packaging the Gospel to them. It’s always about a new program or a new way of saying things or a tract. It doesn’t speak to the hurt in their hearts. If they are broken, hungry, and abused what will telling them the promise of eternal live with the Lord do for them?
Let me give you an example. I was talking to a student about Jesus the other day. He said that Christians seemed crazy. So I asked him if I said I had a personal relationship with George Washington would I sound crazy? He said yes. But I told him, I’ve read every book known about George and we’re buddies. He said that wouldn’t work because Geogre Washington is dead. I told him he was right, and the difference between George Washingto and Jesus Christ is that Jesus is alive. I have a daily walk and relationship with him. It is so much more than just reading a book and having head knowledge.
But that’s what we convey to so many. We know the Bible and throw it in their faces. Let the people see how Christ has changed our lives (and how He leads us to show compassion to others). Let them see how we are different because of Him. Tell stories of what He has done for us. Let thoes be our testimonies that speak to the world. People want to see changed lives. To hear real, tangible stories of hope.
Does eternal life matter? Yes. But I say that hope matters more to this generation.
Virgil,
I think persecution is promised to us. Certainly persecution is prevelant in certain parts of the world. I can in no way compare the little persecution I’ve gone through to those who are really suffering. If we’re making a bold stand for Christ, we are promised persecution even in the U.S. Check out Matthew 5, 24:9, and Mark 4. If you’re not suffering any persecution, that doesn’t mean you’re not a Christian, it just means you’re doing something wrong.
April,
I don’t think people struggle with eternity. God has placed eternity on the hearts of all men (Ecclesiastes 3:11). No one wants to die.
I agree that pretty much all non-Christians won’t sit still and listen to Bible verses, regardless of their age. They’re enemies with God (Colossians 1:21), His wrath abides on them (John 3:36), and they’re incapable of seeking God (Romans 3:10-12). However, those who are born again have a thirst and a love for God’s word including high schoolers and junior high schoolers.
When you say that the good news is that Jesus will forgive our sins, and love us, I agree completely.
Stuart,
I probably did misunderstand your post.
I agree 100% that telling people that Jesus died for someone’s sins doesn’t make any sense, and they won’t be interested. Certainly, the other side of the coin, that they’re going to hell without Jesus, makes no sense to them. I would even say it’s cruel to tell someone they’re going to hell without Jesus, without explaining. They don’t understand the gravity of sin. They think they’re pretty good people. If you went around asking people if they think they’re good people, probably at least 90% of them think they’re really good. Proverbs 20:6 (NKJV)says, “Most men will proclaim each his own goodness.”
God has provided a way to make hell reasonable, to show people they’re not good, and to make them think about eternity. It’s God’s law that does all of this. Take a look at Romans 3:19-20, 7:7, 7:13. Galatians 3:24 is my favorite verse about the law, it says the law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.
If you want to take a look, you can see where Jesus, Peter, Paul, Jude and pretty much all of them used the law (the Ten Commandments). I think we make a mistake if we say that this generation is different from their generation, and we have to make up all new methods tailor-made for 2007.
I guess we just disagree on evangelism methods. I think we should all strive to do it the most biblical way possible, though.
Thanks,
Bill
[...] talk about death… I stumbled across this today at a youth worker’s blog. A gospel which talks about death and judgment isn’t [...]
I wrote a quick response to your post over at http://seeingclearly.wordpress.com
I am glad that you are reaching out to today’s youth, but I think this type of evangelism is reactionary and swings the pendelum way too far.
Check out Matthew 5, 24:9, and Mark 4
I did…it starts with: He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying…
In all three passages, Jesus is addressing his disciples - they were the ones being persecuted, not us. Jesus was speaking to people living 2,000 years ago.
3 points I think about often:
1. Salvation is holistic in nature
2. The Bible is not destination theology.
3. The Bible is journey theology
Who I am becoming is just as important as where I am going.
Clearly - maybe I haven’t expressed myself completely, but I believe that I’ve never stated throwing out the eternal perspective in evangelism. I’m just saying that I believe that evangelism can solely become about judgment and the afterlife. You don’t convict people into heaven.
Actually it was Isaiah (61:1) and later Christ reading this (at the advent of his ministry) who said: “The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me, because the Lord has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners…”
This is a message of HOPE and a ministry of HOPE. The good news with out hope isn’t good news at all.
Joey my boy I love your quote, “Who I am becoming is just as important as where I am going.” So true.
The whole idea of a heaven on earth mentality is a pretty big stumbling block to a lot of funda-gelicals. When they read that one cares about people’s lives today, they assume that the afterlife is being neglected.
I’ve reached the point where I just let them assume what they will. There is very little chance of a successful resolution to such a conversation.
I like what I see here, by the way.
Too often we think of Jesus as our ticket to Heaven or our escape from Hell. While, of course, this is basically true; that is certainly not all Jesus hopes to be. Sin separates people from God. Jesus came not to just get people to Heaven, He came to restore our relationship with God. And that certainly has in-this-life implications. I think that was part of your point, Stuart. So if people (like middle schoolers) aren’t prepared to think about their eternal destination yet, they could consider how a relationship with Jesus could affect them in this life, though it is but a vapor.
My eternal life does not start when I die. My eternal life began when I was 11. I’m living it already. I have a living relationship with the Creator of the Universe. And if I am obeying the most important commandment and loving Him with everything I’ve got, that will show in the way I live this temporal life. And I can share that with others.
I think that you’re onto something Stuart (and the original writer of the comment). But too many professing Christians just prayed a prayer to get a ticket to Heaven. They never really wanted a living relationship with Jesus that would actually totally change this temporal life. Too many professing Christians don’t really want a God Who is involved in every detail of their lives and Who guides every decision they make. Too many professing Christians just want a Get-Out-Of-Hell-Free Pass and don’t really want to love God with every bit of their hearts, souls, strength, and mind. That’s why the Church isn’t as effective as it could be. Too many people in the Church aren’t really alive with true eternal life.
A quick addendum to my above comment:
I made a gross generalization. Not all fundagelicals feel the way I suggested.
Carry on.
So true Derbe about your eternal live starting NOW! It’s just a big concept to wrap your mind around. I don’ t even think I have it yet…
You’re right Todd. I felt like I was beginning to go in circles. I like good conversation, but the I’m ‘right and you’re wrong and let me prove to you how right I am’ thing goes no where fast. Thanks for stopping by. I’ll be checking out your blog too!
Todd and if they loved this, they’ll really have some fun with the NOOMA video I’m posting Saturday.
I couldn’t be in more agreement with Stuart on this one.
As a “progressive” (for lack of a better term) Christian pastor, I find this discussion very interesting. You will rarely hear the afterlife mentioned in the kind of churches I serve. We just don’t talk about it. Our focus is on the Kingdom of God that we believe is breaking into the world all around us now, if we choose to see it and accept Christ’s invitation to be part of it (The Kingdom of God is within you.) As a pastor, I honestly have very little to say about the afterlife to the folks I serve — I certainly have no details from scripture for those wanting to know what the afterlike is or what it will be. And I think that if we focus on the afterlife as the endgame of Christianity, it reveals a selfishness and a self-centeredness that can poison our faith. Jesus’ concern in the gospels, it seems to me, was feeding the hungry, working for justice, healing the sick, caring for the outcast in the here-and-now. God will take care of eternity.
I feel compelled to add something. When I was in middle school, I attended a revival meeting at my grandma’s church. The pastor spoke about Hell. I don’t remember what all he said, but I do remember he yelled a lot and his bald head turned very red. I remember he described the lake of fire and he told us that anybody who doesn’t have a personal relationship with Jesus is going there.
Most youth workers would tell you that a middle schooler would be totally turned off by such preaching, that middle schoolers aren’t thinking about eternity, that middle schoolers don’t like yelling preachers who look like they’re about to pop a vein on the top of their heads.
But that was the night I realized I believed all the right stuff with my head but it had never settled into my heart and changed me. I realized that I didn’t have a relationship with Christ and that I really would die one day and go to Hell unless something changed. So that was the night I was re-born, the night I began my relationship with Jesus.
I say all that to say that I think there certainly is a place for preaching about eternity, even to kids.
I also think we should discuss the life we have now, the abundant life our Father gives to us. I think we should give testimony of how He cares for us and loves us and how knowing Him has changed us.
Stuart,
You know the only way to evangelize is to use your hand and spell out…
I guess I should have put this here:
I just finished a series on Rob’s book “Velvet Elvis” that I think you’d enjoy at:
http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/rob-bell/
Part 2 deals with the eschatological shift from a “when we get over yonder” to a “let’s bring heaven here” theology.
Michael,
Can I ask you a question? Well, actually two since that was one. What makes you think anyone cares what you write about Rob? Everywhere I find a conversation about him you’re pimping your stuff. Help me understand. After I hear from you maybe I’ll go and see what you have to say.
Joe,
Good question. It’s as simple as loving the discussion and wanting to learn. People who do care leave comments that I learn from.
Right now I’m writing about Richard Dawkins’ book “The God Delusion” and I’ve tried to bring as many Atheists into the discussion as I can because I want to learn about them - about their view of the world and their view of us as Christians. So far I’ve learned a great deal, challenged my faith and my thinking, and made some friends along the way.
The Rob Bell series is the same idea. There are a number of new blogs I read because of that series that I benefit from intellectually. I do want to see the church flourish and engage our culture and I see Rob doing that but I’m unsure of some of what he’s doing. So the point of most of the writing there is “Does any of this seem weird to you? If not, please help me understand.”
Now “pimping” implies that I am somehow whoring out my words for financial gain and I don’t think any of the words on my blog feel they’re being pimped - but you can ask them if you like.
LOL, Have you ever seen “Timeline” the movie? In it one of the actors says to another one “We’re both talking the same language but we have no idea what the other is saying.” Pimping is “geek” talk for linking. For instance, when my wife writes something I want others to read I will pimp it. I’ll even tell her that I’m pimping it.
Sometimes, I forget when I’m online that when I am dealing with people who are…maybe more conservative than I am some words have a completely different context. I surely didn’t mean to imply you were whoring your stuff out for money but you were pimping your stuff. In the geek term. Does that make sense?
Of course it makes sense. All in good fun, buddy. I understand what you meant… just having fun with ambiguous words, plus I got to use the word “whoring”… and that’s always fun!
I’m accused of being both too conservative and too liberal depending on the audience.
Cheers - here’s to conversation.