This is a very thought provoking post. The question becomes do we believe they are being oppressed and therefore we should help them. In other words if my neighbor who is bringing 60-80K a year with one kid and three cars in his driveway were to steal I would not offer him asylum. However, if someone who was making 12dollars a year and they stole to feed their family. I might help them. Poverty is such a complicated issue.

Ok guys!!! Getting a little fired up on the issue. Justifying laws is not a maybe or maybe not decision. God specifically gave us guidelines and rules to follow. The Ten Commandments doesn’t say Thou Shall Not Steal -unless you don’t have the money or Thou Shall Not Murder –unless you are really angry with someone. There isn’t any hyphen after those commandments. Aren’t we suppose to allow God provide for us? If we see someone in need we should care for him or her the way Jesus would. HOWEVER, the issue on illegal aliens is wrong. IT IS ILLEGAL HERE PEOPLE!!! You can’t state that it’s ok for some people and not others. There is no way to justify an illegal issue. It’s a black and white issue. It’s either wrong or right. Stuart- I believe so strongly in your comment about there being consequences for actions. Don’t we all have to deal with consequences of committing illegal actions? What makes our issue not acceptable but other issues acceptable because families might be broken? I think I’m starting to turn red…… sorry guys…… I feel really passionate about us playing games about the law and attempting to be our own God and twist the rules to fit our own selfish purpose. Ok…. I feel better now……

April,
You lost me halfway through that rant. I’m not here as a moral agent for the government. I’m not saying I would steal. But whether you like it or not, this is not a simple black and white issue. This issue isn’t about stealing. It is about us saying certain people don’t have the right to be here. I’m curious, are you Native American? There was a time when it was illegal for a black man to eat in a white restaurant. If you owned such a restaurant would you have allowed blacks to eat there? Or would you have just said, “Well, that’s the law!”
Have you ever met an illegal immigrant? Ever worked with one? Ever watched one work 3 jobs at half of minimum wage so he can send most of the money back to his family?
Ever fed one?
Get as fired up as you want. The bottom line is we as descendants of immigrants are making it harder and harder for other people to be immigrants to this country. I had a roommate from England, it was nearly impossible to get him citizenship here because he didn’t want to go to college.
If you ask me, most of our “immigration” laws are more suited to “our own selfish purposes.”

I’m curious which law is your last statement referring to? God’s law or man’s?

Ok, now I’m starting to feel sick…

Squeek….. Pump your brakes Joe. You can put down the boxing gloves. Let me begin to defend the attacks at my door one by one. 1) I am a Native American 2) Let’s only address the issues of illegal aliens. I can’t help that thousands of Indian’s died from American diseases, or that the thousands and thousands Jews were tortured from Hitler’s decision of what a perfect person should look like. We are only discussing illegal aliens here…ok? If you want to debate all these other topics give me your email address and we can go at it, boxing gloves and all. 3) I have met MANY illegal aliens. 4) I have worked (and am currently working) with illegal aliens. Now, 5) is a little tricky because you are stereotyping work ethics. I have watched 4 illegal aliens stand around and watched US citizens work as hard and fast as they could. You can’t say that every alien works hard because I’ve seen some that have and some that have not. I’m sorry that your friend was not able to get citizenship. I have also known people that I have cared deeply about that faced same problem. And as much as it hurt that they weren’t able to stay it also angered me that they had to leave even though they were trying to do the right thing by getting there citizenship and others steal…..yes they steal and lie to acquire status that soot’s there selfish condition. It doesn’t make it ok that some stay and others don’t but there has to be some sort of regulation or can you imagine the chaos that would occur? I am certainly the first one to complain about how crooked and underhanded the government is! But God does command us to follow the laws of our government. 6) My last statement was referring to us serving and obeying the Lord and the laws of our government. All that I’m saying is that you can’t twist laws to best suit you or anyone else’s situation.

This is quite interesting. When will i get to see the TV broadcast?

LOL, you crack me up April. You can get excited but I’m stereotyping, and have boxing gloves on. R U really Native American? That’s funny. Because you completely missed my point there (or I did a poor job of communicating it) although I fear there won’t be much real communication between us. It seems to me that you can passionately argue your side but I cannot. I agree with you that there are hard working immigrants and lazy ones both legal and illegal. However, America’s law’s or any other’s do not supersede my conscience. I believe our immigration laws as they stand need changed. I believe that poverty and the resulting illegal immigration is a very complex issue that isn’t as simple as the black and white that you painted it to be. You are correct God does command us to follow the laws of our government. I would add this caveat; unless those laws are superseding His commands. And this is where you and I would probably disagree. What exactly are His commands to us in regards to illegal immigrants. I will remind you that at one time this country had laws that said, African Americans were little more than property. (If you come back and tell me your African American I’m going to demand to see a picture)
There are times when it is not only OK to break the governments laws, there are times when it is the right thing to do. All of that to say that I will stick to my original statement and say I’m not sure what I would do in the situation.
Now, I’m off to find a boxing ring….

I’m with Joe on this. As a pastor and a Christian, the last thing I’m here to be is an agent of our government. Maintaining that “God does command us to follow the laws of our government” would mean following every racist, sexist, and immoral law the government might choose to enact. Many passionate Christians have chosen to resist the government and its laws as a matter of Christian conscience. For me, the real issue here is whether or not we take seriously Deut. 10 where it says God “executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and who loves the strangers, providing them with food and clothing. You shall also love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.”

Is there a difference between being an agent of the government and promoting yourself and your church as a place of asylum for people breaking the law? I think there is.

You don’t have to go out and round up illegal immigrants. Nobody is asking pastors to do that. But I think there is a BIG difference between being “an agent of the government” and broadcasting to all the world that you’ll offer asylum to lawbreakers.

There are ways for people to legally enter this country. And there are just consequences for those who do not follow the proper channels.

By the way, we are to follow the law of our government unless doing so would be breaking God’s law. How do immigration laws break God’s law?

Without sounding like a cop out, we as Christians are asked to obey the laws of the land. Supporting illegal immigrants is against the law and will give another angle for a hostile world to Jesus to point a finger at us.

But does that mean we turn a blind eye to a hurting family torn apart by man’s laws? Is man’s laws above God’s laws to love our neighbours? Do we keep the law and break the law of loving our neighbours?

To answer this questions requires wisdom and discernment – and a whole of “being as cunning as a serpent but as gentle as a dove.”

Would I do it? Probably. Would I tell anyone about it? Probably not. I wonder if Rahab told the residents of Jericho she was harbouring the two spies under her roof.

Does loving my neighbor mean I help him break the law if he’s here illegally? Are our immigration laws really unjust?

One study I read said that illegal immigrants cost our government $10.4 billion each year — which means, illegal immigrants cost taxpayers (you and me) more than $10 billion a year. Giving legal amnesty to these illegal immigrants would raise this cost to an estimated $29 billion a year. The amnesty would increase their individual wages and their tax payments, but it would also increase their access to federal assistance and programs, thus the greater financial cost. Could loving my hard-working, middle-class, tax-paying US citizen neighbor include enforcing immigration laws? Or can we not think about loving those who aren’t poor and aren’t breaking the law?

Perhaps it’s my strong sense of justice, but I have trouble with the argument that we must help illegal immigrants break the law in order to show them Christ’s love.

My husband and I know a man who broke the law. He had a long criminal record and he was awaiting trial for his latest crime when he accepted Jesus. We loved this man. We helped him. But we believed he deserved to go to jail. He had committed a crime. Yes, his time in jail separated him from his daughter, but this was the consequence for his illegal actions. He willingly broke the law. We visited him in prison; we took his daughter to visit him in prison; we wrote him letters; we sent him money; we bought Christmas presents for his daughter in his name. We let him stay with us for a while when he was released from prison. We loved him. But we did not try to help him flee justice. We did not whisk him across state lines and hide him so he didn’t have to go to prison. We loved him and served him and helped him within the bounds of the law.

I believe it’s possible to love someone and uphold the law simultaneously.

Myderbe: THIS STATEMENT WAS AWESOME!!!!

….but I have trouble with the argument that we must help illegal immigrants break the law in order to show them Christ’s love

Could loving my hard-working, middle-class, tax-paying US citizen neighbor include enforcing immigration laws? Or can we not think about loving those who aren’t poor and aren’t breaking the law?

Myderbe, I understand what you’re getting at here, and I agree that we can’t let our love be determined by how much a person makes. However, a tax-paying US citizen who is middle class will feel very little impact to their personal situation by the increased cost to the government of granting amnesty to illegal aliens. A poor alien, on the other hand, would see a huge change in their situation.

I also think that God has, throughout the Bible, made it clear that he expects the poor, widows and orphans to be given special care. That is, those who are disadvantaged get care, whereas those who have no need of care (most of us middle class citizens, for instance in this example) don’t get the same kind of care because they don’t need it.

Calvin, fair enough. Good point. But my question still is — are our immigration laws immoral or unjust? Can’t we uphold the laws of our nation and still love the poor? Why encourage more people to break the law by not enforcing it or by offering special treatment to those who have broken the law?

And I’m wondering about what you said — you really don’t think we’d feel a difference of $19 billion in tax money? Where would that extra $19 billion come from? If we offer amnesty and have to pay for that increase, wouldn’t our taxes increase? And wouldn’t more people come if they knew they could break the law and get away with it? I don’t know about you, but we need the money we make. I don’t want to have to pay more in taxes because some people chose to break the law and come here illegally. Maybe that’s selfish. But we give to charities and we do try to help those who don’t have as much as we have. But every poor person in the world can’t just come to the US and take advantage of the generosity of taxpayers here. And if we don’t have any immigration laws, or if we don’t enforce the ones we have, what are we supposed to do?

I don’t think there are easy answers. I was recently in Sao Paulo, Brazil, and I saw a lot of poor people. I wanted to do something to help them. It’s frustrating that I can only do so much. Almost everyone I met there would like to come to the United States. They think everyone here is really rich and has an easy life. That’s sort of true, but we know that’s not completely true. All of those people cannot come live here. I do believe we need to help other people and share our blessings, but I also believe it’s acceptable for our country to have laws regarding immigration.

Well, I think the argument being made on the one side is that our laws are unjust because they contribute greatly to the separation of families and because they often cause people to have an incredibly difficult time becoming citizens, among other things. I think whether the laws are just or not is an important discussion, but ultimately tied in with the question of whether Christians should help the destitute and poor. If the answer to that question is yes, then – in some ways – the question of whether the law is just or not doesn’t matter, the poor should be helped regardless of their legal status.

As for the $19 Billion in taxes, no – I really don’t. Military spending has increased by that number in just one year (2006 to be specific). Generally speaking, I do not know anyone who has been really affected by the increased military spending in their day to day lives. Some of the people I know (who are upper middle class) have paid a little more in taxes. Those who come in under the poverty line have seen no changes whatsoever. So, I’m simply pointing out that we really wouldn’t feel such an increase in our day to day lives. Regardless, the question must be asked – does it matter? We all need the money, yes. I’m a Seminary student and grew up as a Pastor’s kid, I know what it is like to have zero extra spending money (and sometimes not enough to cover the bills). But – we had food to put on the table. We had clothes and a house. There are plenty of poor people in America that don’t have that. On the other side of the coin, if you make little enough that you are actually in a position where increased taxes would remove your ability to eat, you are probably in a low enough tax bracket that you would not pay increased taxes anyway. I should also point out that we haven’t really seen an increase in taxes over the time that military spending has increased (I’m not picking on the military at all, my father in law is retired Air Force. It just is the easiest to find statistics on).

Having said all of that I need to also point out that I, by the by, am no supporter of government assistance and hand out programs. I would much rather that instead of the government taking care of the poor, the Church take care of the poor. Which brings us around to the question we started with – should churches be helping the poor (the Bible says yes) even if those poor are illegal immigrants. The question we must answer in our discussion, or at least so I believe, is this: Does being an illegal alien mean that the command to take care of the poor, widows and orphans is no longer binding?

Interesting thoughts.

What if a very poor thief wanted you to hide him and feed him and give him shelter, and you knew he was a thief and that the police were looking for him? He isn’t a violent thief; he’s never actually harmed anyone; but he has stolen a good bit of money from the people it really belonged to. But he did it because he’s poor and he was trying to get a better life. Do you tell the police he’s at your church or house? Or do you hide him and feed him and protect him from the consequences of his actions?

Are you obligated to help him by breaking the law? Or could you call the police and then try to help him within the bounds of the law?

I think there must be ways to help very poor illegal immigrants while upholding our laws. I do not think Christians are given a mandate to break the law to help the poor.

By the way, the main reason deporting illegal immigrants breaks up families is because people have come illegally and then had children in this country. The children are then considered US citizens because they were born here, but the parents are illegal immigrants. If the parents had not broken the law to begin with, they would not face separating the family. This too is a consequence of their illegal actions to begin with.

Do poor people not have to pay the consequences for their actions?

I’m not saying people should not have to own to the consequences of their actions. What I am saying is that as Christians we have a responsibility to help the poor and destitute. The problem is that modern immigration is a very complicated issue. Regardless, there are many who would maintain, I believe rightfully so, that to split up a family is unjust. Did the parents do “wrong” by coming to the US illegally? If by wrong we mean breaking the laws of the US, then yes. If by wrong we mean violating one of God’s laws (sans the encouragement Paul gives to obey the king/governor) no. I think that there is room to disagree here, and I also think you bring up valid points that we need to wrestle with.

The thief analogy, I think, is Apples to Oranges, in a way. I would, most likely, if the police came knocking, turn in the thief. If the thief was truly poor and destitute, I doubt I would call the police. If the thief was stealing a car vs. stealing food for her family I think that makes a difference too.

Let me put it this way. I do not think as Christians we are obligated to break the law to help illegal immigrants. However, we are perhaps obligated to seek a change in the laws that hinder us from helping these people to the best of our ability. On the other hand, as I think about it, perhaps its really a matter of perspective. I’ll try to explain. If the government made a law that they could kill the parents of Hispanic children I would hide those parents from the authorities. I would do everything in my power to keep those parents alive, regardless of the laws of the land. This is certainly a harsh example. But it illustrates a point that, I think, makes clear the question we have to answer, as I mentioned in my previous comment.

If it is unjust to separate a family, then we as Christians have our answer – we must help the poor who cannot protect themselves from such injustice.

There are many other things we could talk about a bring up. Others have already mentioned the fact that it took people practicing civil disobedience for minority people groups to be granted equal rights with the white middle class majority. I do think that plays a part in this discussion. We could also talk about how many immigrants do want to become citizens, but cannot begin the process. Our faith must inform our views on these things. Ultimately we must ask ourselves, to borrow a horrible cliche, what would Jesus do?

Derbe,
Your question to me has one fatal flaw. He’s trying to make a better life. That needs to be defined. I just got back from helping build part of a house (through habitat for humanity) for people that make more yearly money than I do with less kids. It’s not about making a better life. If the guy stole out of necessity, then I think I would hide him. I’m nearly certain I would. I don’t say that lightly. I mean, I might get there and say, “sorry.” I don’t know.
I think the greater problem with this issue is that we try to make it too black and white. Too simple. The only way I’m in America today is because my grandparents immigrated here. Something they may not have been able to do in this day and age.

Joe, I certainly agree that it’s not black and white. And that’s saying a lot for me ’cause I used to a black and white kinda girl.

Calvin, I can understand what you’re saying and I agree with you sort of. It sounds like you’re sort of making some huge mandate that it’s always unjust to split up families. I don’t think you really mean that — I mean criminals are separated from their kids all the time when they get sent to jail. It’s part of the consequences of their actions.

I agree that we need to help the poor. I think we have an obligation as followers of Christ. But I don’t think that has to negate our obligation to uphold laws. I’m also not fully convinced that deporting illegal immigrants is in violation of the exhortation to love them. Can you love someone and enforce consequences for breaking rules? I do it with my children every day.

I think we do need to look at and change our immigration laws. Will that require civil disobedience? I don’t know. I guess I’m not fully convinced yet. It’s tough for people who came here illegally to stand up and demand rights. I’m not sure it equates with the civil rights movement. I think that’s comparing apples to oranges.

Are there times Christians need to disobey laws? Sure, when obeying man’s laws directly opposes God’s laws. I think Christians in Nazi Germany had an obligation to disobey the laws, because they knew the Jewish people would be killed if they didn’t help hide them. I think the midwives in baby Moses’ day had an obligation to disobey, because they had the obligation to protect life. I think Christians in Sudan and China and other nations today have an obligation to disobey. And if there were some law in our country ordering us to turn in all illegal immigrants so they could be beheaded, I think we would -for sure- have an obligation to disobey.

But that’s not the law. So you can’t really compare it.

Here are my questions — why couldn’t these illegal immigrants come through the proper, legal channels? Why did they break the law to come? And what about all the poor people who do want to come here legally? The people who are desperate and destitute and really want to come but who are waiting and waiting and trying to do it legally. What is our obligation to them? How do the millions of illegal immigrants affect those who are waiting and following the laws? I need to study this topic more because I don’t have all the information.

I guess I just don’t think the only Christ-like thing to do is to proclaim to all the world that you’re offering asylum to illegal immigrants, that you’re willing to protect them from the consequences of their illegal actions. Would Jesus do that? I’m not so sure He would have.

Oh, and Calvin, do you really think that stealing food is justified but stealing a car isn’t? Is it OK to take what belongs to someone else if you really believe you need it? The problem with that is who decides who’s needy enough and what objects are minimal enough to satisfy the need but not so great as to qualify as a want. I mean, would it be OK to steal steak to feed my family? Or is that too much of a want? Maybe only a can of tuna. And what if I truly needed a car so I could drive to my job to provide for my family? Then would it be OK to steal the car?

Moral relativism is a slippery slope, Calvin. I’d rather not start sliding down it. I understand the Bible to say that stealing is wrong. I don’t see a small asterisk saying it’s ok as long as you’re stealing food to feed your family.

And I don’t see that it’s OK to ignore the immigration laws of a country as long as your goal is to provide for your family and make a better life. I think laws need to be obeyed (unless, of course, they are in direct contradiction to God’s laws).

By the way, Calvin, do you think it’s OK to break any law that isn’t directly a law from the Bible? You said “Did the parents do “wrong” by coming to the US illegally? If by wrong we mean breaking the laws of the US, then yes. If by wrong we mean violating one of God’s laws (sans the encouragement Paul gives to obey the king/governor) no.”

Umm . . .isn’t it wrong to break the laws of the country even if those laws are not specifically stated in the Bible?

What about the law not to smoke in some restaurants (like in NYC)? That’s sure not in the Bible. So can I smoke in restaurants and expect not to have consequences?

What about speed limits? The Bible doesn’t mention that. So can I speed and expect not to have consequences?

What about driving under the influence? That’s not in the Bible. That’s not one of God’s laws. So I guess driving with a buzz isn’t “doing wrong.”

Pretty much — we can break all traffic laws because the Bible doesn’t mention any of those. And all compulsory education laws. Those can be ignored. And, let’s see . . .

You get my point. And the fact is that Paul’s “encouragement” to obey those in authority over us is just as much God’s word as the commandments in Deut. It was all written by the Holy Spirit.

I’m afraid you have misinterpreted my comments slightly. I’m not saying that we can just go disobeying any laws we like, or any law that isn’t explicitly written in the Bible. I was rather trying to point out that there is a difference between violating a explicit Biblical command (a la “thou shalt not murder”) and violating a civil law of an earthly nation (a la “African American’s cannot ride in these seats on this bus”).

As for the stealing food but not a car – please don’t turn the example into something it is not. It will, eventually, break down. I was attempting to simply illustrate the point that there is a difference between people who steal to steal, or for their own selfish ends, or for fun and those who steal to live. Your questions point out exactly what Joe is saying, this situation is not black and white.

I also can’t say that it is always wrong to split up families. At times, the actions of someone mandate that they will be split from their family. That is sad, and the consequence of sin. But moving to a new piece of dirt (like with immigration) and killing someone, or holding up a store, are two completely separate issues.

Ultimately, again, I think we have to come back to this question: Is the system of immigration in the United States just? If so, then the discussion we are having is largely moot. If the system is not just, then we as Christians have two options (at least as I see it, maybe I have missed a third option) we can 1) seek to change the law through normal obedient methods, 2) we can seek to change the law through civil disobedience such as helping illegal aliens. One final thought – if the system is not just it is violating a principle that God has set down, namely, that the government provides justice.

Good conversation, Calvin. You’ve made me think. (About something other than what we’ll have for dinner and whose turn it is to take out the dog.) That’s always a good thing.

I can agree with some of what you’re saying, but I can’t agree with all of it. Perhaps the immigration laws need reform. I’m not sure. I think a government has a right to protect its borders and have some control over who is coming in and out, and I think we need some laws and processes that govern how people from other countries come to live here. And I don’t think people can just ignore those laws and expect there to be no consequences.

I don’t think this situation is like the civil rights movement. Maybe as I learn more, I’ll change my mind. And maybe I won’t.

And I do think there are some black and white issues when it comes to morality. I think stealing is wrong. Period. I don’t think it’s OK to steal if you believe you’re stealing to live. I think there are always other alternatives. And, as a Christian, I think stealing (or endorsing stealing) is motivated by fear and not by faith. That’s not to say I don’t have sympathy on someone so poor and downtrodden that she believes she must steal to live. I feel great compassion on anyone who believes that. But I don’t think that makes the action right. And, by the way, I know you know the illustration of stealing eventually breaks down. That was my point. But who gets to decide when the breakdown has gone to far? You? Someone with morals a little more loose than you? Obviously you don’t think someone with morals a little more conservative than you is right? So who gets to decide when the stealing is for a want and not a need? Moral relativism is tricky.

OK, I think I’ve said all I can say about this. I’ll try not to hog up Stuart’s comment box any more.

Moral relativism is tricky. We’ll have to agree to disagree here. Not that it is tricky, but that what I’m doing comes anywhere near Moral relativism.

As for all the other things, I’m glad to make you think, you’ve certainly forced me to process through things as well. Ultimately I think our disagreement is not one of morals, but one of perspective. From my perspective (or rather, the perspective I am attempting to represent) immigration is akin to the civil rights movement and as such is a question of justice. Because of this I do not see my points as being immoral, but rather I see the stance of the government as being unjust (again, it would be better to say the view I am representing does these things, as opposed to myself…I am less decided on the issue than these comments may reveal).

I’m sure we could manage to continue talking about this for the foreseeable future. However, in the interest of brevity I’ll leave you with this: I think that as Christians we are to help everyone. Because of this, in a perfect society (which, obviously doesn’t exist – but since we’re into examples and analogies) no one would need to steal because Christians would do everything we could to ensure no one wanted for food, clothing and shelter (that is to say, we would be willing to give up our iPhones, our iPods, our SUVs, etc, etc, etc). The immigration issue is, ultimately, different from the stealing issue because there is no government regulation to prevent us from giving away food so no one “needs” to steal, whereas the government decides who may come to our country, how many may come, and what the process is.

Anyway, those are my final thoughts. It’s been fun everyone – thanks for getting this conversation started Stuart.

Derbe,
This is not an attack. [repeat] This is not an attack.

Have you ever been so hungry you were starving? I mean honest to God starving? I never have. I know people who have, and I know that my knowing them changed how I view this issue to some extent. It’s what took a black and white issue for me and made it somewhat gray.

Calvin, thanks for your comments. And I agree about the perfect world thing. We Christians are way too selfish and don’t give nearly enough. And I definitely include myself in that statement. If the Church were doing it’s job . . . –often that phrase comes into my mind. And I’m part of that Church that’s not doing enough.

Joe, no, I haven’t ever been so hungry I was starving. In my community there are programs for people who are so hungry they are starving. There are food pantries where hungry people can get food for free; there are churches that serve meals; there are nonprofit organizations that serve meals; there are government programs that give people money for food. If I were that hungry, I’d like to think I would take advantage of some of those programs or ask my local church for help or ask my family for help. I’m fairly certain I would not steal. I know you’ll argue that I can’t be sure since I’ve never been in the situation. And you’re right; but I do know myself and my strong sense of justice. I’d much rather humble myself and ask for help than steal.

And, since I’m a Christian, I trust that God will provide all I need. That may sound cheesey and Pollyanna-ish, but it’s true. And I do live that. And I have seen Him provide in amazing ways.

It doesn’t sound Pollyannish at all. I have woken up on mornings where we had no food and no money to buy food with kids and God provided so I understand 100% what you are saying.